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	<title>Comments on: We&#8217;re In This Together</title>
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	<link>http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/384/were-in-this-together</link>
	<description>Mac &#38; Technology Writings by Daniel Jalkut</description>
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		<title>By: Marc Edwards</title>
		<link>http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/384/were-in-this-together/comment-page-1#comment-132707</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc Edwards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Aug 2007 09:51:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/384/were-in-this-together#comment-132707</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think it&#039;s all a matter of attitude and if enough of the important players share Daniel&#039;s attitude, then it will make a difference.

I personally agree, and see all indy developers as peers before seeing them as competition, even though I haven&#039;t really met anyone (one of the unfortunate things about living thousands of kilometers away from the rest of the world!).

A larger market share doesn&#039;t mean our market would be the same as Windows: I think there&#039;s too much history and too many good apps out there... you can&#039;t expect a ShoddyWare™ app to succeed in most categories, where there&#039;s usually a decent free app and a really amazing paid-for app.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s all a matter of attitude and if enough of the important players share Daniel&#8217;s attitude, then it will make a difference.</p>
<p>I personally agree, and see all indy developers as peers before seeing them as competition, even though I haven&#8217;t really met anyone (one of the unfortunate things about living thousands of kilometers away from the rest of the world!).</p>
<p>A larger market share doesn&#8217;t mean our market would be the same as Windows: I think there&#8217;s too much history and too many good apps out there&#8230; you can&#8217;t expect a ShoddyWare™ app to succeed in most categories, where there&#8217;s usually a decent free app and a really amazing paid-for app.</p>
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		<title>By: AJ</title>
		<link>http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/384/were-in-this-together/comment-page-1#comment-132702</link>
		<dc:creator>AJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 21:49:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/384/were-in-this-together#comment-132702</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As Joe mentions, I think it takes a certain kind of person to develop for the Mac platform. I believe that those people are more idealistic, they shun the herd and go their own way or go the way of a smaller bunch.

That smaller bunch usually thinks in a different way and that different way is what creates the kind of community we have.

For me, I decided to write Mac software, not because I liked the Mac per se, it is because I felt that the World needed competition on the computing platform and that the best way I could help is too write some kind of software missing on the platform - to help it along.

Idealistic - you bet, but I find that a lot of Indie Mac developer have some kind of idealism driving them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As Joe mentions, I think it takes a certain kind of person to develop for the Mac platform. I believe that those people are more idealistic, they shun the herd and go their own way or go the way of a smaller bunch.</p>
<p>That smaller bunch usually thinks in a different way and that different way is what creates the kind of community we have.</p>
<p>For me, I decided to write Mac software, not because I liked the Mac per se, it is because I felt that the World needed competition on the computing platform and that the best way I could help is too write some kind of software missing on the platform &#8211; to help it along.</p>
<p>Idealistic &#8211; you bet, but I find that a lot of Indie Mac developer have some kind of idealism driving them.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Stewart</title>
		<link>http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/384/were-in-this-together/comment-page-1#comment-132701</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Stewart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 16:27:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/384/were-in-this-together#comment-132701</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Are people just afraid to name Disco as the fly-by-night hypeware?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are people just afraid to name Disco as the fly-by-night hypeware?</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Jalkut</title>
		<link>http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/384/were-in-this-together/comment-page-1#comment-132699</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Jalkut</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 14:51:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/384/were-in-this-together#comment-132699</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Rampancy: perhaps to some extent I&#039;m playing up the community here in an effort to highlight what it&#039;s like at its best. You&#039;re right to point out that it&#039;s not all flowers all the time.

But it could be self-perpetuating, I think, to remind each other every once in a while that we are better as a community than as a combat-zone.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rampancy: perhaps to some extent I&#8217;m playing up the community here in an effort to highlight what it&#8217;s like at its best. You&#8217;re right to point out that it&#8217;s not all flowers all the time.</p>
<p>But it could be self-perpetuating, I think, to remind each other every once in a while that we are better as a community than as a combat-zone.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Jalkut</title>
		<link>http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/384/were-in-this-together/comment-page-1#comment-132698</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Jalkut</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 14:50:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/384/were-in-this-together#comment-132698</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh - and I tend to shop at the thrift stores, but my taste in computers has very little in common with my taste in clothes, so I thought a better analogy was in order :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh &#8211; and I tend to shop at the thrift stores, but my taste in computers has very little in common with my taste in clothes, so I thought a better analogy was in order :)</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Jalkut</title>
		<link>http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/384/were-in-this-together/comment-page-1#comment-132697</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Jalkut</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 14:48:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/384/were-in-this-together#comment-132697</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John: wow - I used a lot of adjectives, didn&#039;t I? Sort of the beauty of my take here is that I am just treating &quot;all those things&quot; as rather abstract threats, as opposed to choosing any particular targets. Mainly this is because I don&#039;t have a bunch of examples at hand.

But to give some perspective on the C4 discussion that prompted Siegel&#039;s response, it was an exploration of the application Pzizz, and how it used what DrunkenBatman identified as junk science to promote the application. 

Now before any Pzizz fans jump on &lt;em&gt;me&lt;/em&gt; for reporting the facts, let me say that I was among the people in the room saying &quot;fine, attack that tactic, but people are just using it to take a nap!&quot;

What was more interesting to me for the purposes of this article were the strong community feelings that Vegh felt at C4, and the community-building rationale that could compel Siegel to pass out sound advice to his competitors. So the question of exploring exactly who the threatening snake-oil salesman are isn&#039;t really up my alley.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John: wow &#8211; I used a lot of adjectives, didn&#8217;t I? Sort of the beauty of my take here is that I am just treating &#8220;all those things&#8221; as rather abstract threats, as opposed to choosing any particular targets. Mainly this is because I don&#8217;t have a bunch of examples at hand.</p>
<p>But to give some perspective on the C4 discussion that prompted Siegel&#8217;s response, it was an exploration of the application Pzizz, and how it used what DrunkenBatman identified as junk science to promote the application. </p>
<p>Now before any Pzizz fans jump on <em>me</em> for reporting the facts, let me say that I was among the people in the room saying &#8220;fine, attack that tactic, but people are just using it to take a nap!&#8221;</p>
<p>What was more interesting to me for the purposes of this article were the strong community feelings that Vegh felt at C4, and the community-building rationale that could compel Siegel to pass out sound advice to his competitors. So the question of exploring exactly who the threatening snake-oil salesman are isn&#8217;t really up my alley.</p>
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		<title>By: rampancy</title>
		<link>http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/384/were-in-this-together/comment-page-1#comment-132696</link>
		<dc:creator>rampancy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 14:22:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/384/were-in-this-together#comment-132696</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I really want to say that I enjoy your articles, including this one. 

While I want to largely agree with your article, I still can&#039;t help but feel that the incredible degree of passion behind developing for the Mac that fuels a strong sense of community also has the capacity to breed something a lot darker. 

I just think about the controversy involving Haxies and Unsanity, for example, Graham Parks talking trash about NetNewsWire, Rich Siegel dismissing other, highly well-regarded competitors as &quot;overnight text editors&quot; that &quot;don&#039;t reflect well on the genre or the platform&quot;, or even the animosity directed at (and spouted from) critics of the &quot;Delicious Generation&quot; like Paul Kafasis and Gus Muller. 

Still, hearing about the BBEdit and TextMate folks having a good time together in the same room is a nice thing to see.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really want to say that I enjoy your articles, including this one. </p>
<p>While I want to largely agree with your article, I still can&#8217;t help but feel that the incredible degree of passion behind developing for the Mac that fuels a strong sense of community also has the capacity to breed something a lot darker. </p>
<p>I just think about the controversy involving Haxies and Unsanity, for example, Graham Parks talking trash about NetNewsWire, Rich Siegel dismissing other, highly well-regarded competitors as &#8220;overnight text editors&#8221; that &#8220;don&#8217;t reflect well on the genre or the platform&#8221;, or even the animosity directed at (and spouted from) critics of the &#8220;Delicious Generation&#8221; like Paul Kafasis and Gus Muller. </p>
<p>Still, hearing about the BBEdit and TextMate folks having a good time together in the same room is a nice thing to see.</p>
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		<title>By: John Casasanta</title>
		<link>http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/384/were-in-this-together/comment-page-1#comment-132691</link>
		<dc:creator>John Casasanta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 05:51:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/384/were-in-this-together#comment-132691</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;d be helpful to me and I&#039;m sure others who are reading this to use concrete examples of who you mean when you say &quot;gimmick-marketing&quot;, &quot;fly-by-night operations&quot;, &quot;cheap, gimmicky wares&quot;, and &quot;shysters and snake-oil-salesmen&quot;.

Since the Mac is well known for it&#039;s quality apps, it&#039;s easy  to think of the stellar developers like Panic, The Omni Group, etc., so it&#039;d be good to qualify your references.

Likewise, it&#039;d be good if Rich also did so in his post.

In reference to your Banana Republic and Abercrombie &amp; Fitch mentions, FWIW, I do a lot of my clothes shopping at Hot Topic. ;)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;d be helpful to me and I&#8217;m sure others who are reading this to use concrete examples of who you mean when you say &#8220;gimmick-marketing&#8221;, &#8220;fly-by-night operations&#8221;, &#8220;cheap, gimmicky wares&#8221;, and &#8220;shysters and snake-oil-salesmen&#8221;.</p>
<p>Since the Mac is well known for it&#8217;s quality apps, it&#8217;s easy  to think of the stellar developers like Panic, The Omni Group, etc., so it&#8217;d be good to qualify your references.</p>
<p>Likewise, it&#8217;d be good if Rich also did so in his post.</p>
<p>In reference to your Banana Republic and Abercrombie &amp; Fitch mentions, FWIW, I do a lot of my clothes shopping at Hot Topic. ;)</p>
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		<title>By: Blain</title>
		<link>http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/384/were-in-this-together/comment-page-1#comment-132689</link>
		<dc:creator>Blain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 01:53:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/384/were-in-this-together#comment-132689</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The market share issue has always been a sticky wicket. It&#039;s disingenuous to claim it has no effect, but to say it&#039;s the only factor is also a cop-out. To sidestep, consider, like the Amiga, Linux GUIs, or even Classic Mac, circa System 7. Things are subjective, especially since none of them really have the malware of tumbleweeds, but it is arguable that Mac OS X has the most attention to detail and polish of these.

And, honestly, nobody seriously thinks that the near future will have marketshare at Mac OS X 90%, Windows 6%. So even if market share is a major factor, it&#039;s not a variable to consider, as it&#039;ll hold relatively constant.

I think the community is the larger reason, and it&#039;s cultural, even down to the words. I recently came across an article talking about mISVs. It took me a while to figure out it was &quot;Micro Independent Software Vendors.&quot; On the mac side, the term&#039;s &quot;Indie developers.&quot; There&#039;s an important distinction here.

I admit I&#039;m reading too much into it, especially since Indie was originally in jest, referring to indie musicians, but nevertheless. Indie musicians also have a passion (yes, to ignore 90% of the market share of listeners) but it&#039;s for good music, regardless of who&#039;s playing it. And while they are competing for attendance and music sales, playing together and listening to others has a network effect.

The root of vendor is &quot;To vend, to sell&quot;. For relative greatness, it&#039;s a competitive advantage if the others are horrible. Developers aim to create, to add. And like the musicians, it&#039;s a cooperative advantage if others are great.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The market share issue has always been a sticky wicket. It&#8217;s disingenuous to claim it has no effect, but to say it&#8217;s the only factor is also a cop-out. To sidestep, consider, like the Amiga, Linux GUIs, or even Classic Mac, circa System 7. Things are subjective, especially since none of them really have the malware of tumbleweeds, but it is arguable that Mac OS X has the most attention to detail and polish of these.</p>
<p>And, honestly, nobody seriously thinks that the near future will have marketshare at Mac OS X 90%, Windows 6%. So even if market share is a major factor, it&#8217;s not a variable to consider, as it&#8217;ll hold relatively constant.</p>
<p>I think the community is the larger reason, and it&#8217;s cultural, even down to the words. I recently came across an article talking about mISVs. It took me a while to figure out it was &#8220;Micro Independent Software Vendors.&#8221; On the mac side, the term&#8217;s &#8220;Indie developers.&#8221; There&#8217;s an important distinction here.</p>
<p>I admit I&#8217;m reading too much into it, especially since Indie was originally in jest, referring to indie musicians, but nevertheless. Indie musicians also have a passion (yes, to ignore 90% of the market share of listeners) but it&#8217;s for good music, regardless of who&#8217;s playing it. And while they are competing for attendance and music sales, playing together and listening to others has a network effect.</p>
<p>The root of vendor is &#8220;To vend, to sell&#8221;. For relative greatness, it&#8217;s a competitive advantage if the others are horrible. Developers aim to create, to add. And like the musicians, it&#8217;s a cooperative advantage if others are great.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Jalkut</title>
		<link>http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/384/were-in-this-together/comment-page-1#comment-132687</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Jalkut</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2007 20:25:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/384/were-in-this-together#comment-132687</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Joe: We might be kidding ourselves, but I believe and a lot of other developers on the Mac believe that it&#039;s more than a numbers game. The fact that quality is a presumption for software on the platform gives everybody a higher bar to strive for from the start. It&#039;s not just because we have less market penetration, it&#039;s because developers who try to develop crap on the Mac get smacked down by users, the press, and other developers.

Going the other direction, there have been platforms with *less* of a market than the Mac, where quality is not generally as high. I was a great fan of the Amiga, and it had some quality software, but it was nothing like the Mac.

I can see your point, and especially appreciate that as a Windows developer you have pride in the great stuff from your platform (your software included), but I don&#039;t think it&#039;s fair to dismiss the pride we take in quality on the Mac as simply attributable to our diminutive market size.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe: We might be kidding ourselves, but I believe and a lot of other developers on the Mac believe that it&#8217;s more than a numbers game. The fact that quality is a presumption for software on the platform gives everybody a higher bar to strive for from the start. It&#8217;s not just because we have less market penetration, it&#8217;s because developers who try to develop crap on the Mac get smacked down by users, the press, and other developers.</p>
<p>Going the other direction, there have been platforms with *less* of a market than the Mac, where quality is not generally as high. I was a great fan of the Amiga, and it had some quality software, but it was nothing like the Mac.</p>
<p>I can see your point, and especially appreciate that as a Windows developer you have pride in the great stuff from your platform (your software included), but I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s fair to dismiss the pride we take in quality on the Mac as simply attributable to our diminutive market size.</p>
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