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	<title>Comments on: Easy Endian-ness</title>
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	<link>http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/92/easy-endian-ness</link>
	<description>Mac &#38; Technology Writings by Daniel Jalkut</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 22:11:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Ozguru</title>
		<link>http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/92/easy-endian-ness#comment-825</link>
		<dc:creator>Ozguru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2006 00:00:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/92/easy-endian-ness#comment-825</guid>
		<description>Cuisenaire Rods?

See &lt;a href="http://teachertech.rice.edu/Participants/silha/Lessons/cuisen2.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Learn Fractions with Cuisenaire Rods&lt;/a&gt; or search google...

I liked the explanation - simple and clear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cuisenaire Rods?</p>
<p>See <a href="http://teachertech.rice.edu/Participants/silha/Lessons/cuisen2.html" rel="nofollow">Learn Fractions with Cuisenaire Rods</a> or search google&#8230;</p>
<p>I liked the explanation - simple and clear.</p>
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		<title>By: Michiel Pelt</title>
		<link>http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/92/easy-endian-ness#comment-795</link>
		<dc:creator>Michiel Pelt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2006 22:11:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/92/easy-endian-ness#comment-795</guid>
		<description>I agree that, when talking about numbers, the endian-ness doesn't really matter. But if you are not talking about numbers, it does matter. Little endian doesn't scale, big endian does. Let me explain with an example.

Say you have a large bit field where each bit represents a boolean value. Say you want to find the largest stretch of cleared bits in the field. With a big endian machine you can optimize this process by reading the bitmap with the native size integers - 32 bit for a 32 bit processor, 64 bit for a 64 bit processor - at a time. When the 128 bit processor comes, the function doesn't change, just start using 128 bit.

With a little endian machine you cannot do this, for the simple reason that the two 32 bit values will be different than the 64 bit value will be different than the 128 bit value. 

Sure the way out is to reverse the loop - start at the end - but that is not always possible or desirable. For example, reading a file from disk backwards isn't a very performant option. Extending an allocated piece of memory at the front is not a function I've heard of either.

IMHO little endian byte order for numbers is a bad idea because everything else is big endian: the sectors on disk, memory allocation functions, everything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that, when talking about numbers, the endian-ness doesn&#8217;t really matter. But if you are not talking about numbers, it does matter. Little endian doesn&#8217;t scale, big endian does. Let me explain with an example.</p>
<p>Say you have a large bit field where each bit represents a boolean value. Say you want to find the largest stretch of cleared bits in the field. With a big endian machine you can optimize this process by reading the bitmap with the native size integers - 32 bit for a 32 bit processor, 64 bit for a 64 bit processor - at a time. When the 128 bit processor comes, the function doesn&#8217;t change, just start using 128 bit.</p>
<p>With a little endian machine you cannot do this, for the simple reason that the two 32 bit values will be different than the 64 bit value will be different than the 128 bit value. </p>
<p>Sure the way out is to reverse the loop - start at the end - but that is not always possible or desirable. For example, reading a file from disk backwards isn&#8217;t a very performant option. Extending an allocated piece of memory at the front is not a function I&#8217;ve heard of either.</p>
<p>IMHO little endian byte order for numbers is a bad idea because everything else is big endian: the sectors on disk, memory allocation functions, everything.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Peterson</title>
		<link>http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/92/easy-endian-ness#comment-747</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Peterson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2006 22:13:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/92/easy-endian-ness#comment-747</guid>
		<description>The Gulliver reference:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/cultureshock/flashpoints/literature/gulliver_a.html

Another technical explanation of the porblem:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Gulliver reference:<br />
<a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/cultureshock/flashpoints/literature/gulliver_a.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/cultureshock/flashpoints/literature/gulliver_a.html</a></p>
<p>Another technical explanation of the porblem:<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness</a></p>
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		<title>By: Stefan Seiz</title>
		<link>http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/92/easy-endian-ness#comment-691</link>
		<dc:creator>Stefan Seiz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2006 17:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/92/easy-endian-ness#comment-691</guid>
		<description>Forgot to mention, that in googles honor, their Analytics product has not been developed on their campus as it was bought from Urchn. Another bit of "lack of usability due to notation/formating habits" ramblings &lt;a href="http://www.stefanseiz.com/archives/2005/08/an_open_letter_to_all_american_websites_web_developers_and_usability_experts.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Forgot to mention, that in googles honor, their Analytics product has not been developed on their campus as it was bought from Urchn. Another bit of &#8220;lack of usability due to notation/formating habits&#8221; ramblings <a href="http://www.stefanseiz.com/archives/2005/08/an_open_letter_to_all_american_websites_web_developers_and_usability_experts.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Stefan Seiz</title>
		<link>http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/92/easy-endian-ness#comment-690</link>
		<dc:creator>Stefan Seiz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2006 14:01:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/92/easy-endian-ness#comment-690</guid>
		<description>Not being a nit-picker or hair splitter, i surely took your statement as "because we all know what year it is". This is a very interesting topic and the world would be soo much easier if we all could agree on standard notations - maybe even agree on the metric system ;-) 
Nerdy Example:
The fine and free Google Analytics does nicely track ecommerce values for us. According to their documentation, they use the period as the decimal seperator - and when looking at ecommerce reports of Google Analytics, numbers are clearly formated as 1,999.00. So allthough i submit Euro values to them - and i'd say the whole Euroland uses the Komma as decimal separator - i play nicely and instruct my application server to format numbers accordingly (just to keep google happy). So my aplication server is being very kind and takes the period as decimal separator and the komma as the thousands seperator so a number looks like 1,999.00 Euro.
Guess what happens? Google correctly takes thesse numbers for single items (skus) of a transaction but fails big time when it comes to the Total of a transaction.
With the totals of transactions, it suddenly recognizes the comma used as thousands separator as the decimal separator. So what in fact was one thousand ninehoundredninetynine point zero is suddenly only one point ninetynine (1,99). I end up with seeing correct statistics of single items (they call it product category report), but totaly off values for the total of transactions on google analytics.

Long story short: Even the many genius google engineers fail on a simple matter of notation.

Of course you'd think they'd at least implement the same logic across all their reports and not get it right with one report but fail with some others. You can't realy blame them as it is absolutely not so easy to know upfront what kind of numbers in what format the whole word would start submitting. Clear documentation would have helped (their documentation only shows examples with amount in the houndreds).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not being a nit-picker or hair splitter, i surely took your statement as &#8220;because we all know what year it is&#8221;. This is a very interesting topic and the world would be soo much easier if we all could agree on standard notations - maybe even agree on the metric system ;-)<br />
Nerdy Example:<br />
The fine and free Google Analytics does nicely track ecommerce values for us. According to their documentation, they use the period as the decimal seperator - and when looking at ecommerce reports of Google Analytics, numbers are clearly formated as 1,999.00. So allthough i submit Euro values to them - and i&#8217;d say the whole Euroland uses the Komma as decimal separator - i play nicely and instruct my application server to format numbers accordingly (just to keep google happy). So my aplication server is being very kind and takes the period as decimal separator and the komma as the thousands seperator so a number looks like 1,999.00 Euro.<br />
Guess what happens? Google correctly takes thesse numbers for single items (skus) of a transaction but fails big time when it comes to the Total of a transaction.<br />
With the totals of transactions, it suddenly recognizes the comma used as thousands separator as the decimal separator. So what in fact was one thousand ninehoundredninetynine point zero is suddenly only one point ninetynine (1,99). I end up with seeing correct statistics of single items (they call it product category report), but totaly off values for the total of transactions on google analytics.</p>
<p>Long story short: Even the many genius google engineers fail on a simple matter of notation.</p>
<p>Of course you&#8217;d think they&#8217;d at least implement the same logic across all their reports and not get it right with one report but fail with some others. You can&#8217;t realy blame them as it is absolutely not so easy to know upfront what kind of numbers in what format the whole word would start submitting. Clear documentation would have helped (their documentation only shows examples with amount in the houndreds).</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Jalkut</title>
		<link>http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/92/easy-endian-ness#comment-681</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Jalkut</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jan 2006 20:06:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/92/easy-endian-ness#comment-681</guid>
		<description>Yeah OK - Europe wins :)  And let me point out before anybody else that my statement "because we all know it's 2005" really needs work! Hmm. Duh!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah OK - Europe wins :)  And let me point out before anybody else that my statement &#8220;because we all know it&#8217;s 2005&#8243; really needs work! Hmm. Duh!</p>
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		<title>By: Stefan Seiz</title>
		<link>http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/92/easy-endian-ness#comment-680</link>
		<dc:creator>Stefan Seiz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jan 2006 20:03:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/92/easy-endian-ness#comment-680</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Similarly, a date like “January 26″ is meaningful right now because we all know it’s 2005. The 2005 is there in case somebody gets confused or wants to make sure it is really today.&lt;/i&gt;

And because most of us also know it is January, most of us europeans start dates with the day ;-)
26 January 2005

We also start with a Street's name and then the number and this seems like designed for usability. Imagine you are trying to find an address by foot or car. What do you need to look for first? You find the street, then you look for numbers. Now let's not even start with the funny numbering schemes they use all over the globe, some havind the odd numbers on the left side of the street and the even numbers on the opposite side...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Similarly, a date like “January 26″ is meaningful right now because we all know it’s 2005. The 2005 is there in case somebody gets confused or wants to make sure it is really today.</i></p>
<p>And because most of us also know it is January, most of us europeans start dates with the day ;-)<br />
26 January 2005</p>
<p>We also start with a Street&#8217;s name and then the number and this seems like designed for usability. Imagine you are trying to find an address by foot or car. What do you need to look for first? You find the street, then you look for numbers. Now let&#8217;s not even start with the funny numbering schemes they use all over the globe, some havind the odd numbers on the left side of the street and the even numbers on the opposite side&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Not Required</title>
		<link>http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/92/easy-endian-ness#comment-676</link>
		<dc:creator>Not Required</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jan 2006 10:39:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/92/easy-endian-ness#comment-676</guid>
		<description>I'm not really sure I understand that pet peeve.  If I *did* think my opinion were important, you should expect me to attach my name; clearly that is not the "peeve" behind my post.  Likewise, if I thought you needed to legitimize what I wrote based on my identity, then that would mean I expect you to commit a logical fallacy; also clearly not the case.  I really just bopped on over from Stepwise thought it was an on-topic point to make.  I really don't understand why I should be forced to be part of the community in order to make a point, and so I almost never post to sites that require registration (a loss, hopefully, to them and their community) and post anonymously unless there really is something to be gained by using my identity.  It strikes me as odd that remaining a helpful stranger is frowned upon.

Back on the topic of endian, I *would* agree that a street address can also have mixed endian, but the justification in your disagreement is clearly wrong.  The hierarchy you describe clearly favors not mixed endian, but little endian.  Yes, with dates, we all can assume the current year, but by that logic we can also assume the current month as well, and often do when we say things like "I have a meeting on the 30th".  Likewise for an address, once you're at the street location, all that *does* matter is the apartment number, and the representation commonly used does *not* allow you to discard everything after it and reduce it to what is immediately meaningful.

I'm not trying to get you to change your blog date format or "requirements" for commenting; I'm just riffing on endian, too.  As we look at endian with computers I think it's interesting to look at endian elsewhere and think about what things make sense and what things are just force of habit.  Yes, there are many common example of mixed endian, but they don't really make a lot of sense when you actually think about them.  It has been said that little endian is favored when writing things out (because you can simply stop if the remainder is "understood"), and that big endian is preferred when representing continual precision (as is often the case for numbers).  I don't know how true that is, but it somehow makes sense that an older architecture like x86, designed when we were moving from paper to electronics, would be little endian whereas newer architectures are usually big endian.  I can't point to a single mixed endian architecture! :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not really sure I understand that pet peeve.  If I *did* think my opinion were important, you should expect me to attach my name; clearly that is not the &#8220;peeve&#8221; behind my post.  Likewise, if I thought you needed to legitimize what I wrote based on my identity, then that would mean I expect you to commit a logical fallacy; also clearly not the case.  I really just bopped on over from Stepwise thought it was an on-topic point to make.  I really don&#8217;t understand why I should be forced to be part of the community in order to make a point, and so I almost never post to sites that require registration (a loss, hopefully, to them and their community) and post anonymously unless there really is something to be gained by using my identity.  It strikes me as odd that remaining a helpful stranger is frowned upon.</p>
<p>Back on the topic of endian, I *would* agree that a street address can also have mixed endian, but the justification in your disagreement is clearly wrong.  The hierarchy you describe clearly favors not mixed endian, but little endian.  Yes, with dates, we all can assume the current year, but by that logic we can also assume the current month as well, and often do when we say things like &#8220;I have a meeting on the 30th&#8221;.  Likewise for an address, once you&#8217;re at the street location, all that *does* matter is the apartment number, and the representation commonly used does *not* allow you to discard everything after it and reduce it to what is immediately meaningful.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not trying to get you to change your blog date format or &#8220;requirements&#8221; for commenting; I&#8217;m just riffing on endian, too.  As we look at endian with computers I think it&#8217;s interesting to look at endian elsewhere and think about what things make sense and what things are just force of habit.  Yes, there are many common example of mixed endian, but they don&#8217;t really make a lot of sense when you actually think about them.  It has been said that little endian is favored when writing things out (because you can simply stop if the remainder is &#8220;understood&#8221;), and that big endian is preferred when representing continual precision (as is often the case for numbers).  I don&#8217;t know how true that is, but it somehow makes sense that an older architecture like x86, designed when we were moving from paper to electronics, would be little endian whereas newer architectures are usually big endian.  I can&#8217;t point to a single mixed endian architecture! :-)</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Keniger</title>
		<link>http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/92/easy-endian-ness#comment-671</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Keniger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jan 2006 22:53:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/92/easy-endian-ness#comment-671</guid>
		<description>The "rods" being discussed are Cuisenaire rods: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuisenaire_rods</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;rods&#8221; being discussed are Cuisenaire rods: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuisenaire_rods" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuisenaire_rods</a></p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Jalkut</title>
		<link>http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/92/easy-endian-ness#comment-664</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Jalkut</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jan 2006 19:01:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/92/easy-endian-ness#comment-664</guid>
		<description>Keith: Thanks a lot for the kind words. It seems the blog is finally getting enough of a readership that I get negative comments to go with the positive ones. A comment like yours every once in a while keeps things in check!

Pete: You totally caught me on being thoughtless and ignorant with regard to "number" vs. "numeral".  I think if I thought about it I would figure it out on my own, but I confess that I've never really given a second thought to using "number" for both the quantity and the representation.  Must be my colloquial habit.  I do think that using the two side-by-side would only lead to headache and confusion by both writer and reader alike. Probably better would have been to clearly define "character" in the context of a "number representation" and thereafter use character or number with more thoughtfulness. (And I'm glad my English imperfections haven't sent you away for good :) )

(Looking back over this entry, I see that I used the terms "number" and "numeral" in close proximity in a perfectly understandable form. I never knew I knew the difference but I guess I did. No excuses, then!)
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Keith: Thanks a lot for the kind words. It seems the blog is finally getting enough of a readership that I get negative comments to go with the positive ones. A comment like yours every once in a while keeps things in check!</p>
<p>Pete: You totally caught me on being thoughtless and ignorant with regard to &#8220;number&#8221; vs. &#8220;numeral&#8221;.  I think if I thought about it I would figure it out on my own, but I confess that I&#8217;ve never really given a second thought to using &#8220;number&#8221; for both the quantity and the representation.  Must be my colloquial habit.  I do think that using the two side-by-side would only lead to headache and confusion by both writer and reader alike. Probably better would have been to clearly define &#8220;character&#8221; in the context of a &#8220;number representation&#8221; and thereafter use character or number with more thoughtfulness. (And I&#8217;m glad my English imperfections haven&#8217;t sent you away for good :) )</p>
<p>(Looking back over this entry, I see that I used the terms &#8220;number&#8221; and &#8220;numeral&#8221; in close proximity in a perfectly understandable form. I never knew I knew the difference but I guess I did. No excuses, then!)</p>
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